"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'"
2 Timothy 2:19
We were in Kentucky for a week and a half. We spent Christmas with my family in Louisville and then spent the following week in eastern KY with the Nations family. I did some preaching while I was there, went squirrel hunting, and spent a lot of good time with the family. It was enjoyable.
We're now back in Spruce Pine and there is a lot of work to do.
Oh yeah, and UofL beat the Wildcats! That was good news!
I found a study about christians in the military written by a Christian. Go to www.milwaukeechruchofchrist.com and follow the links Lessons and Studies then Christians in civil service. I tried to link it but it didn't work.
1) Is the second serving of the Lord's supper authorized or are those who engage in it going beyond God' authority?
2) How can we justify Christians serving in combat positions in the U.S. military when we wouldn't dare do so if we lived in most other countries? Do we presume to know which nations God approves of and which He does not? Why don't the proponents of the "Christian-soldier" position consistently apply their principles to rogue nations, communist nations, etc?
These are two questions I've been thinking of lately. My conclusion on number one is not steadfast. I can see the arguments of both sides. One thought on question 1, though, is that the command to "wait for one another" is in the context of the assembly, not the first day of the week. Regarding the second question, I guess you can see my position. Ha. I really believe that a misguided sense of patriotism has led many Christians to a conclusion that, when extended to its logical ends, cannot be accepted by anyone.
I agree with what you are saying Casey about consistency. I think we need to quit promoting Patriotism as a form of godliness.
On the other hand, we know that people can kill and it be good. God, who is not evil and does not tempt with evil, ordered killing numerous times. Consider Jericho as an example: everything, including nursing children were killed. It couldn't have been evil b/c God commanded it. Now I can't suppose that I know God's perfect judgment. Each one must be determined in his own mind on this issue as to whether they could in good conscience serve in that capacity and role. The rest of us should allow mercy to triump over judgment in relation to those who do such.
It may have been right under the Old Testament when God commanded it. And certainly, He gave civil powers to the nation of Israel, allowing them to execute justice. But where are such commands for us today? Just because it was right for them does not make it right for us. It all goes back to authority. Then, Israel was a physical nation with civil laws. But we are a spiritual nation today, told to subject ourselves to the physical nation. To me that is the difference. Where are Christian told to execute justice? No, we're to leave that to God and th govt. Where are Christians told to go to physical war? We're not! Where are the commands for us to engage in such actions?
And Terry, if I viewed this as a liberty, then I would agree with you and allow mercy to triumph over judgment. But the fact is, this is not liberty...at least not to me. I see this as quite a bit more serious than that.
The soldier would not be executing justice, the government would be. There is a difference there.
I guess I would ask where your authority is to show Chrsitians can't serve in the military. Where is the command for Cornelius to resign? Where is the exampmle of those who were of the palace guard to quit their posts? There is no authority for your position to say someone can't even though we have examples of Christians who did and no evidence they changed.
And, before it's argued it's hard to say Cornelius wasn't in a potential life-taking capacity.
It just seems to me that if we were really able to draw lines for everyone and condemn them that we would have much more scriptural evidence for such. I know you are convinced and that is fine. I just simply make the appeal to show mercy before you judge.
I grasp the concept of role distinctions; in fact, I figured that would be your response. It doesn't hold up in this case, though, does it? Why would God authorize only sinners to function as agents of the government in a life-taking capacity, charged with upholding good and punishing evil? It seems illogical to suggest only the evil may punish evil, and only the evil may uphold good. Furthermore, doesn't God command these sinners to turn from their wicked ways and obey the gospel? What if a soldier is baptized into Christ? Does God condemn him one day for doing what God commanded him the day before?
So Terry, as a soldier, I'm killing people and it's not even for justice (at least, as far as I'm concerned)? Then why am I killing people? As far as Cornelius, there is no evidence either way so we cannot possibly use him to support either position. There may be no evidence they changed, but there is equally no evidence that they didn't change...or seek "non-combat" positions.
You are allowing your idea of military service to taint what could have happened with Cornelius. I'm not aware of any "non-combat" positions among Roman Centurions. And you've missed my point. I was saying definitively as you have. My point was that if God meant for us to be able to have the proof text to draw a line about this, wouldn't there be one? Cornelius would be perfect but you're right, there's no proof there. Which means, perhaps we aren't supposed to draw this line. And to your point about justice you've already answered your question: "as far as I'm concerned". That's fine that your conscience would not allow you to do such. But binding that on others is not what should be done.
The govt isn't necessarily evil. What the govt is doing is God-ordained per Rom. 13 and therefore right. But my point is this: just because it's right for the govt doesn't mean it's right for us, just like it's right for the husband to lead the wife, but wrong for the wife to take on that role of headship. Yes, sinners need to obey the gospel and become Christians. What do soldiers do when they become Christians? It may be that they leave the army altogether, even if it means receiving a dishonorable discharge. It may be that they seek a non-combat position (where they are not killing others). I don't know. That's left up to the soldier to decide. Yes, they have to change their life.
Terry, just because it's not clear as to what Cornelius did doesn't mean that we can't be sure today about what God expects in this area. That's a pretty weak argument. We don't know what the Eunuch did when he got to Ethiopia. Did he start a church there? Was there already a church there? Did he relocate to an area where there was a church? Or maybe he never sought to join or start any church. So because we don't know what the eunuch did, is it logical to conclude that we can't draw lines about the importance of the church? Does that negate Heb. 10:25? Of course not. We may be unsure as to what happened in that case, but it doesn't prove anything. We have to consider the rest of scripture.
I guess I would like some scriptural proof for the line you've drawn. And to understand my view, I would not view a soldier killing in military service to be committing murder.
And how do you know what God's plan is? If you served under Joshua and you received the command to kill everying including nursing child, you would have gone AWOL. But it was God's will and therefore not evil. Keep in mind, God is still raising and lowering kings today.
When I said "as far as I'm concerned" I was using the phrase accomodatively in response to your post. You made the point that the soldier would not be executing justice, the govt would be. So my question was, if I personally am not executing justice, then what am I doing? I'm shooting people, perhaps even "Christians" all because the govt says "this is justice." What if the govt is wrong? How can we judge in that area?
I would have kille under the leadership of Joshua, because God told the Israelites (His people) to do just that. He gave them civil law and they (as His people) were commanded to kill and execute justice and go to war. But God's people today have not been charged with these same instructions. The govt is told to execute justice and punish evildoers, but we are not. Where is your authority, Terry, for saying that Christians are given this charge?
and obviously if it offends your conscience then you can't do it. In fact, I would think about the only passage you could definitively use to defend such a position is that it does offend your conscience.
On what basis do you trust God in this area? God has not revealed Himself in this area? He hasn't told us how he works in the affairs of men. We don't know! Yes, we can trust God that His will be done, and that the nations are but a drop in a bucket to God. He is in control! We can trust that. But that doesn't mean that we know how God is working! Is God using the U.S. to punish the terrorists? Perhaps. But is it possible that God is ultimately wanting to bring America down by stirring up the rage of Islam? I don't know, and neither do you. That's the point. We can look at a situation and conclude "this is how God is working," but can we really know?
I don't see any condemnation of people being a part of Government including the military. In fact, I see men who were military men who were baptized and we have no proof of a change or a need for change.
It would offend my conscience, but I think there's more to it than that. I think there is biblical teaching in this area that forbids it. Otherwise, I wouldn't press the point.
And that is your conclusive evidence? If so, then your entire position is based on an assumption. And with that reasoning, we might as well throw out the church, because again, we don't know what the eunuch did when he went to Ethiopia.
I do know that God is working. We do have scriptural proof for that. He didn't retire after the New Testament. If God is judging America, he's not judging the individual soldiers.
Let's apply your principles on a different side. If a man can't serve in the military because of unjustified killing in your opinion, can a citizen pay taxes to a government for unjustified killing? I mean your tax dollars are killing those people. So shouldn't you move to Canada or France or some country that isn't involved in wars currently? Your tax dollars paid for the bullet that killed the guy the soldier shot. Aren't you just as guilty? I know that seems illogical. But the tax payer isn't judged because of the leadership's decisions. A man who serves out his active commission in my opinion isn't judged either. I think to tell a new convert he has to leave the military or change his assignment (neither of which are as simply as you portray) is drawing a line we have no business drawing because we have no scripture to support it.
But we're specifically told to pay taxes. And did you realize that Jesus told the people to pay taxes to the Roman govt when the same Roman govt would unjustly kill Jesus later on? Does that justify the unjust killing of Jesus? He was an innocent man after all.
Casey, it's obvious this discussion is going no where. I appreciate your passion for your position. I just disagree. I asked for your scriptural evidence to support it and you gave none. Instead, you asked for mine. I gave it and now it appears you are mocking my position rather than explaining yours. There is as much evidence for my position as there is yours. Which I will honestly admit is pretty slim. That's why I've said we must approach this with mercy more than judgment. And we can't throw out the church. That's inflamtory speak that is more interested in proving a point than finding the truth. I have need to get into such discussions. I'm out.
We've been having quite a bit of snow this year here in the mountains of NC. We've had at least three "inchers" and some places of the county saw up to eight inches (along the TN border). It's been nice. We're supposed to get freezing rain today, and another inch of snow tonight.
I've been thinking: there is rain, snow, freezing rain, hail and sleet. How are they all formed? What conditions have to be present for hail versus sleet, for example? Or snow versus freezing rain? I'm sure it has to do with the atmospheric conditions high and low, but how does that explain five different varieties of precipitation?
Anyways, we're going to Louisville for Thanksgiving. We're leaving Wednesday and coming back Saturday. We're all quite excited about it. Thanksgiving is...like...the best holiday ever. And my mom is driving down from Chicago. She hasn't seen Jason (who is 18 months) or Lydia. The last time we saw her was Jenna's first birthday, and she's three now!
I was going to work Thanksgiving Day, as I normally do Thursdays, then just feast with the family on Saturday. Last week, however, I got an email from my boss, asking if I could switch those two days. I replied "No problem" before I even looked at the calendar. I was giving up holiday pay (time and a half) and changing my family's plans without even realizing what week it was. On the schedule, they've got someone working overtime to cover Thursday! I have no idea why they switched it. That extra money would have been very helpful, too, especially since I went home sick yesterday and missed five hours of pay.
I ran into your father in law a little while back at a gospel meeting and he told me you guys were doing well. Tell the misses I said hi and good to see you on here I hope we can share some ideas through that group
Hey there! It seems I had forgotten you and your book cover. Actually, I had a couple of other projects that I had already started and got behind working on yours. I'll let you know when I am going to send it. Hope you guys are well!
I would be delighted to write the article on why the church matters. What is my deadline? What does 300-600 words come out to be in terms of page length?
I just sent the article to the yahoo address listed on this page. It's 507 words. If it looks familiar it's because I reworked a recent bulletin article for it, the same one on the homepage for the church here, www.vvcoc.info.
Thankfully, Rachel and I were married well over a year before either of us ever traveled without the other. I think it's important to minimize time apart (Deuteronomy 24:5). I'm glad she has time to visit her folks and let them help her with the kids. She deserves some rest.
I'm preaching a gospel meeting this weekend in Asheville. I'll be preaching tonight at 7PM, Saturday at 6PM and three times on Sunday. Joe Hickman is the one who preaches for the Asheville church of Christ, and I know him really well. He's an "A-1" guy. I'm really looking forward to the weekend. My lesson tonight will be on salvation, and the rest of the lessons this weekend will focus on inner transformation and the importance of attitude. Asheville is only about an hour and fifteen minutes away from Spruce Pine, so I'll be driving back and forth.
Lydia Katherine is doing well, as are the other children. I feel bad, though, because I was changing Jenna's clothes two nights ago (she is three now), and I was pulling her shirt off and sprained her wrist. It was a tight, long-sleeve shirt, and it was stubborn coming off, but how in the world I sprained her wrist, I don't know. Anyways, she is wearing a temporary cast, but she's taking it all well.
As far as the recent presidential election, I must admit that I am disappointed and somewhat concerned about what will happen in the next four years. But at the same time, Obama will be my president, and I will honor him and pray for him. Ultimately, God is in control, and I must trust Him. My responsibilities as a Christian remain the same whether the president is liberal or conservative. We'll see what happens in the next four years. I'm interested to see how Obama does.
Thanksgiving is coming up, which is without a doubt, my favorite holiday of the year. We're going to be in Louisville this year at my Grandmother's house. I'm looking forward to it.
A preacher friend of my parents was once wrestling with his little boy, pinned him, and in so doing accidentally dislocated his arms! Naturally, he felt horrible about the whole thing. Unfortunately, he was investigated by Child Protective Services. Wouldn't you be a little suspicious if a guy showed up at the ER with his son's arms dislocated and he tried to convince you they were just playing? Yikes! Be glad that didn't happen to you.
